PhDSciNet Interview 8: PhDs Moving into Industry

Historical interview: The following preserves the research experiences and personal views expressed in the original manuscript.

PhDSciNet Interview Series — PhDs Moving into Industry

In an era when a doctorate is becoming less unusual, what options do PhDs have after graduation when teaching and research positions are limited? Some people say that choosing industry means a PhD is 'lowering their status.' What do you think?

Today, we have invited a PhD working in industry to talk about his views on PhDs moving into the industrial sector. If you are also considering a job in industry, why not listen to his story? We hope his struggles, frustrations, insights, and experiences will help those of you who are facing this choice.

Introducing Our Guests

Lululu (噜噜噜): PhD graduate and senior engineer in industry.

Mike: Assistant professor at a university outside mainland China.

Calorie (卡路里): Postdoctoral researcher, currently looking for a job.

01 Making a Choice Can Be an Agonizing Process

Question 01: Was it difficult for you to leave academia?

Lululu (噜噜噜): I found my current job in 2018, when I was nearing the end of my doctorate. Making that decision was very difficult. My doctoral specialization had little connection with the work I do now. Going into industry, especially a sector unrelated to my specialization, was really an unconventional choice even among unconventional choices. Choosing this state-owned enterprise meant leaving behind years of research outcomes and specialist knowledge, as well as the resources and connections I had with teachers and classmates in academia. So I was very conflicted about the decision.

On the other hand, at that time, especially as graduation approached, the pressure from papers, research, and finding a job was at its peak. By the doctoral stage, most of the examples around me were people who had gone to universities or research institutes. I was very apprehensive about continuing down the academic path and wanted a slightly easier job—less hassle, more money, and closer to home. By a combination of circumstances, I ended up choosing this state-owned enterprise.

I still remember that state of mind very vividly: I was deeply torn. In the end, I made the decision together with my family and my partner, and chose to join the company where I work now.

Question 02: Were many of your classmates finding faculty positions at the time?

Lululu (噜噜噜): Not very many. A lot of them continued into postdoctoral positions. The university jobs available to people applying directly after their doctorates were generally not ideal.

Question 03: Did you try to continue along the academic path?

Lululu (噜噜噜): I did try to find an academic job. I sent many applications to universities and research institutes. Because of policies in mainland China at the time—and some firm requirements that were still in place when we had this interview—there were barriers such as whether you had overseas experience. I applied to many good universities, but because of those requirements, I was basically turned away immediately. So I thought that if I continued in academia, I would first need to do a postdoc. If I did not want to do a postdoc, it might be better to let go of that path sooner; industry was also a good option. That was why I decided to find this state-owned enterprise, which was fairly close to home, offered decent compensation, and was a good choice overall.

Question 04: Did you feel resistant to academia?

Lululu (噜噜噜): I would not call it resistance, because it really also has a lot to do with individual ability. Some people are very well suited to research and publish excellent papers. There were also relatively few successful examples around me. What level of university you can enter and what compensation you can receive are very practical questions. When you are in that circle, you can more or less estimate where you stand. I had not planned to continue along the academic route at that point. It was not that I resented academia or thought that the academic world was bad; that was not the case.

Question 05: What was your publication record like when you graduated?

Lululu (噜噜噜): I had four papers in journals classified in category one, and no overseas experience.

(An aside: That already sounds very impressive.)

Question 06: Did you consider looking for a postdoc overseas to develop your abilities further?

Lululu (噜噜噜): I did look at the time. I tried applying for university positions, but none of the options was very satisfactory. Later, I also applied for postdocs and actually received an offer. But after getting an offer, you still compare your options and ask whether it is really necessary.

I also felt at the time that the academic path was genuinely exhausting. I thought that joining a company and starting afresh was another valid choice. So I ultimately left academia and chose this company.

Question 07: What appealed to you most about this company?

Lululu (噜噜噜): One reason was that the company hired both me and my partner. Taking everything together, the compensation and positions were good, and it was a little closer to home. Overall, it was a fairly good choice for both of us.

Question 08: Does your industry job have to match the research you did during your PhD?

Lululu (噜噜噜): To be precise, I did not think that much about it at the time—for example, whether the job was related to my specialization, particularly in biochemical materials. I felt that it was not very easy to find a company that was closely related to that field, because much of what we worked on was fairly theoretical. Whatever company I joined, I felt I would almost be starting over.

So my first consideration was not whether the job aligned with my specialist knowledge or whether its prospects were particularly good. Since I would have to start over anyway, I mainly focused on choosing a job. I did not think too much about whether the work would connect with my background later on, or whether fields such as computing would become especially popular. Whatever I did, I would be starting afresh without a foundation in that area.

Question 09: Is your main work at the company still research?

Lululu (噜噜噜): Yes. We work in the company's technical center, mainly doing research and development.

Broadly speaking, my work is still in a materials-related area. If I had chosen a popular field such as computing, there would really have been no connection with my background at all. This job is reasonably suitable, so even starting from scratch, it is a little easier to get into.

Question 10: Is it easier for PhDs to get started in R&D positions?

Lululu (噜噜噜): After joining, I actually found that it was not as easy to get started as I had imagined. Specializations become quite distinct as you get deeper into them, and the gaps are quite large.

I can only say that it is a little easier than entering an industry in which you have absolutely no foundation. For example, moving into finance or computing after graduation might involve an even bigger leap.

02 The Advantages and Disadvantages PhDs Have in Industry

Question 11: Why did I get the offer?

Lululu (噜噜噜): In hiring me for this job, what they mainly valued was my degree and educational background. At the time, they did not pay particularly close attention to my specific area of specialization.

Question 12: Compared with colleagues who joined at the same time, what are your advantages and disadvantages?

Lululu (噜噜噜): Let me start with the disadvantages, which I think are quite obvious. There is a substantial gap in specialist knowledge. In the ** industry in particular, I could almost be said to have no foundation at all, so I had to learn the subject from scratch on my own. There are also connections with teachers, classmates, and other academic contacts that do not compare with those of colleagues at the same level. My teachers and classmates are mostly at universities, whereas my colleagues have networks across major companies in the relevant industry throughout the country. So the lack of specialist knowledge and professional connections is a real disadvantage, and it is not easy to change.

The advantages are also quite clear. Everything has two sides. Even though our specializations differ, we have received systematic theoretical and research training, which gives us certain advantages in how we think. Because of our training, we tend to examine different aspects of a problem quite rigorously. The research we usually do requires a certain amount of imagination. By contrast, colleagues at the same level often did their doctorates while interning in engineering companies or helping their supervisors with engineering projects commissioned by outside organizations. We approach problems from different perspectives.

Other advantages come from individual traits. In a state-owned enterprise in particular, a person's overall abilities are among the most important factors determining whether they can advance or be promoted. Being able to get along well with all kinds of people may be one of those individual advantages.

Question 13: Is lacking a background in the field a disadvantage? Does interdisciplinary training offer advantages in industry?

Lululu (噜噜噜): In my current company, especially in a very traditional industry like our ** sector, I actually feel that interdisciplinary work is even more important. In a traditional industry, production processes and operations may have remained very conventional for many years. Introducing more intelligent approaches, such as combining data processing with production-line automation, can be very significant.

For example, a product may generate a large amount of process data and product-performance data, which can help ensure greater stability in the product and the production process. In the past, adjustments might have had to be made manually, which was very cumbersome. The company is now also introducing concepts from artificial intelligence to process these large datasets and automate production-line control. This can substantially improve both efficiency and the proportion of products that meet quality standards. So I feel that companies are increasingly emphasizing the importance of interdisciplinary work.

Question 14: Is age a problem when it comes to promotion?

Lululu (噜噜噜): I feel that educational qualifications are valued even more in state-owned enterprises. Especially when you are first starting out, differences in qualifications directly affect differences in various aspects of your job, including income and promotion.

Age is not the problem; the advantages of having a doctorate clearly outweigh the disadvantages. Of course, that becomes less certain as you spend more time working. Someone with a somewhat lower level of formal education may, after years of experience, have accumulated more than you have and may progress more smoothly. But at the beginning, the advantages clearly outweigh the disadvantages.

03 Is Choosing Industry a Second-Best Option for a PhD?

Question 15: Is moving into industry a second-best option for a PhD?

Lululu (噜噜噜): I do not think we should view it that way. After completing a doctorate, I feel that industry and academia should be considered equally valid choices.

Mike: I do not think there is any hierarchy of status or worth between academia and industry. They simply represent different divisions of work that arise from each person's abilities and opportunities. So there is really no question of one being higher or lower than the other.

Calorie (卡路里): If we were trying to give the 'correct' answer, I think everyone would probably say that all jobs are equal. But if we think about the people around us, don't most of those with the strongest research, publications, and backgrounds still end up in academia? They may have taken the academic path without even considering anything else. For ordinary people like us, our competitiveness really does not measure up to theirs, and more outstanding people have pushed us back a step. But industry jobs may be better than faculty positions in terms of happiness, time we can control, income, and other aspects. So my view is that perhaps we really have taken a step back, but that does not make it a second-best choice.

Mike: This mainly comes from a long-standing assumption: that the point of doing a PhD is to find a faculty position.

But there are now many high-tech companies and traditional industrial companies, and the range of career pathways available to PhDs has widened considerably, both in the market and in policy. Your choice can depend entirely on your personality and preferences. A faculty position, for example, has the advantage of relatively flexible hours. At the same time, its disadvantage is that your personal life and work cannot be separated very clearly. In a company or in industry, by comparison, you may work overtime, but once you finish work, you can draw a relatively clear boundary. Those are some of the advantages of industry. So we cannot simply assume that everyone must become a teacher after earning a doctorate. Many people still hold that view, and our thinking needs to move forward.

Question 16: Do you regret doing a PhD?

Lululu (噜噜噜): I would definitely still do a PhD. I feel that it broadens your thinking and your horizons in many ways. To me, there is a considerable difference between having that experience and not having it.

Question 17: Are you happy?

Lululu (噜噜噜): I think happiness is relative. Compared with when I was doing my doctorate, the intensity of my work is much lower now, my schedule is more regular, and I am much better off financially, so in that sense I am very happy. But the work is now rather uneventful, and relationships with other people inevitably involve maneuvering and office politics, which is upsetting. It is much less straightforward than life during my doctorate, so in that respect I am also quite unhappy.

Actually, I think that whatever job you do, after a long time you will develop some resistance to it, and there will be moments when you feel overwhelmed and unhappy. So it is still very important to learn to draw boundaries between work and life. After all, we do not live our whole lives just to work.

04 Set Down Your Burdens and Start Again

Question 18: What difficulties have you encountered in industry? Can the title of PhD become a burden?

Lululu (噜噜噜): I feel that the hardest part is whether you can get past the psychological barrier within yourself early on. People who have done a PhD, especially after entering a company, tend to carry some sense of status or a slightly lofty attitude.

You are bound to encounter things around you that you dislike or find very unfair. At that point, there will be a gap between your expectations and reality: I am clearly more capable than you, so why is my outcome not as good? What matters most then is being able to let go of that sense of status early, get over that internal hurdle, and solve the problems in front of you one by one.

Question 19: What advice would you give PhDs who are considering moving into industry?

Lululu (噜噜噜): My small piece of advice is this: if you have already found a job in industry or are considering one, once you start work, the sooner you can stop dwelling on your degree, the closer you will be to success.

Your abilities and specialist knowledge are already part of you, and they will always be your strengths. What comes next is how soon you can let go of your sense of status, stop dwelling on your qualification, and truly become part of the company's culture. You will find that there is a large gap between what you need to learn on campus and what you need to learn in society. In fact, everyone has a great deal to learn. The sooner you can set down that burden, the closer you will be to success.

There is actually a wide variety of careers in industry. Here are some roles to help broaden your thinking and find your direction, for reference only: R&D, training, entrepreneurship, consulting, law-related work, management, and more.

After the interview, we felt clearly that academia and industry are not higher and lower choices, but different directions. Academia has its own struggles, and industry has its own sources of happiness. We do not follow the crowd; we listen to our own hearts. Understanding yourself well is essential to making career plans. We 'take a step back in order to see a wider world.' Let us start from the heart and find an offer that truly appeals to us.

PhD guests: Lululu (噜噜噜), Mike, and Calorie (卡路里)

Editor: Honey Peach Oolong (蜜桃乌龙)

Interviewer: Fantuan (饭团)

Audio recording: Huangyuan Wandou (黄圆豌豆)